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Anita Kozlowski | NLP and Relationships Podcast Transcript

Anita discusses an NLP and relationsip case study with NLP trainer Michael Beale

Anita Kozlowski, MA is the founder of the Live with Power Institute and Live with Power NLP™ seminar group in Edmonton, Alberta, an internationally licensed NLP™ trainer, business consultant, results coach and speaker.

Michael : I'm very pleased that we've got Anita with us today who is going to talk us through a really interesting case study that she has worked on about somebody whom had difficulty maintaining a difficult relationship - And how she worked with it. But firstly if I could welcome Anita to the podcast and just ask you to say Hi.

Anita : Well hello. It is nice to talk to you again - It is always a pleasure Michael. And the weather here is wonderful.

Michael : What is wonderful in Canada?

Anita : Well Canada is a big country - Anything that is sunny and above twenty degrees Celsius is considered incredible - so it is an incredible day today.

Michael : Excellent - Now - Other than that you live in Canada, would you like to tell our listeners a little bit about you?

Anita : About myself? I reside in Edmunton and operate from Edmunton. I'm a licensed trainer here - we have a company called Live With Power NLP Seminars where we teach programs of practitioner level and master practitioner levels - Business consultancy - in house trainings.

Lately I did some seminars for therapists in a maximum security prison. Coaching and just expanding this wonderful area of knowledge that we call NLP.

Michael : Excellent. If I could ask you to go straight into this case study - As I say, we're talking about somebody who was unable to maintain an intimate relationship - Can you describe the current situation? What was their problem?

Anita : The problem was - individually and genetically he was a highly professional man who was married for over twenty years in a stable economic situation with three grown up children who came to me saying he was on the brink of divorce and he didn't know why - because his wife said that their relationship was dead - she did not feel listened to, and that their communication was poor.

And he himself had absolutely no clue that there was a problem. So he came because he wanted to save the marriage and to adopt new strategies to take this relationship to a better level.

Michael : And what do you think would have happened if he didn't do anything?

Anita : I was certain that divorce was imminent because I did talk to his wife - eventually I did have the opportunity to - and they were on the brink of divorce and this situation was escalating to a point of no return.

So when he came, I would say that he was close to the last moment.

Michael : This I find fascinating. For you doing your role, this situation happens - What were your own objectives in this situation? What do you want to achieve when somebody comes to you in that situation?

Anita : Firstly I need to understand what the problem was and then I would always look at the so-called problem - The structure of the problem - How did it happen? And what would be the key elements that would make it into a problem?

Obviously that was a question that needed a lot of communication between them which would lead to a misunderstanding, disguising good intentions - So my objective was to eliminate those problems and to be able to facilitate change at a level where they miss each other.

Michael : And right at the beginning, what would you have hoped would be the end result? Or what possible end result would you be looking at as you started - But only as you had enough to understand the basics of what it was about.

Anita : Well the end result for me would have been that these two people would be able to sit down and to understand each other. That they would be able to find real fire in the relationship that obviously must have been there otherwise they wouldn't have gotten married in the first place.

And for them to understand that sometimes what we believe, may not be the case. Because sometimes people assume that there are certain problems when all there is is a misunderstanding.

So my objective would be that their relationship would be saved and that they would find common grounds.

Michael : Excellent. OK - What did you actually do? You've got the client in front of you - You've got this situation - What did you actually do?

Anita : Of course, when I first got in contact with him I needed to find out exactly how this lack of intimacy, and this poor relationship - what exactly did it mean? Was it a problem? In his view it wasn't a problem, the only problem was that he was puzzled as to why his wife considered it a problem.

And then as I was talking to this fellow - as always when talking to clients - I was calibrating him as an individual and creating my own models of what could possibly be the problem. And I had an inkling talking to him that even very simple things could be a problem, which I decided to test and I found out that it was.

Which was, that this particular person did not access his visual modality. It was as simple as that. His main problem was that he was in his audio modality basically all of the time.

He resembled a computer - His eyes were going horizontally, his tonality was so that if he heard two tones it was a song -And there was this robotic particular quality of his speech as well as the fact that he was using tremendous number of normalizations - and he came across as almost rehearsing something that had already been said.

Michael : And what impact did this have?

Anita : What has happened is that - My hypothesis was, that I wanted to test (I wasn't sure what would happen.) but in this case that if a person remains in an auditory modality, obviously the way that they translate information that comes to them from the external world in an auditory fashion - in other words - in order for something to have a meaning they have to obviously put it in front of them in terms of filing systems from which they bring it back in a form of words.

So in my hypothesis was that this person was really in a position where he was very good at processing himself out of his feelings - with the absence of visual modalities - Which I decided to test -and at the end of the whole process I decided I was right.

Michael : How did you test it?

Anita : Well I utilized what I had available. So what I did - I had a copy of a magazine in my hand - Man's World which happens to have a lot of pictures in it - So I tore out a piece of paper which had a photograph and I told these words to the man - In this case I said 'What I'm going to (Let's call him Doug) I'm going to show you a picture and what I will ask you to do is for you to look at it and I will ask you to remember what is on it - and I want you to use visual words - and I will keep it in front of your eyes for a couple of minutes and after that I will remove it and I will ask you to tell me what you have remembered."

Which I did. So as I showed him the picture I was watching his eyes - They were going horizontally from ear to ear, which is an interesting way of observing things. However there is no commonality of how people observe information.

After two minutes I removed it, and I asked what it was that he had remembered. And he again, switched to the robotic state, and in very even tones, in almost rhythmic fashion said something like this : "There is a man with a child sitting on his back." And carried on in this fashion, and then stopped.

And I said to him - "Is there anything else?"

And he said No. His mind was completely blank.

So my hypothesis was, that this man, when he was looking at images, he is translating them immediately into words which he then files inside his internal systems, in terms of syntax, which he then brings out as if it were just a verbal or an auditory message - He does not remember images or pictures - He just doesn't see what's in front of him because he goes straight into the auditory modality - Which would have certain implications within the relationship, because in order to connect we need to see the person that we're with.

So I said "OK - I will do something else." I tore out another piece of paper of photograph out of this magazine and said "What I will ask you to do now is to look at this photograph that I have put in front of you - I want you to pay attention to what you see - and I want you to tell me when to remove it - When you're satisfied that you remember what is on it - and only when you tell me to do so."

So I did that and I was watching his eyes and I started noticing different eye movements which gave me a clue that perhaps he was paying attention visually - starting to see things - So after about two and a half minutes and I asked what it was that he remembered seeing on that picture.

And he said "Well there was a cat..." and he began to return to how he was before - thinking auditorily - But then you could see his eyes look upwards and he said 'Oh yeah there was this green tree there and there was a flower." and he began describing many more things on it.

And I said 'Anything else?' and when I looked at his eyes I could see that he was actually looking, searching for an imagine - and then he gave me ten different pieces of information that were all correct, including a piece of text that was written at the bottom of it. It was a far more comprehensive report than before - which confirmed my belief that this man basically did not access his visual modalities, because in this case he was instructed to do so - He did so, which lead to a more comprehensive memory of what it is that he saw.

At this point I said 'Very good. Now, I would like to go back to one time when you were dating your wife, to a time when you were really happy with her - Times when you had wonderful experiences together.

Go back to a time like that - one such time, or even two times - tell me about it. Tell me what it was that you saw - Tell me about the circumstances and what did you see?"

So he went into his way of reporting things and then he says 'Oh yeah, she was wearing a blue dress.', 'Yeah she was kind of vibrant and happy.'. He began to describe things - and I said 'Ok, what else is it that you saw?'

And his eyes began to look for images and it obviously wasn't easy for him to see at first, but then we went into this picture, this recollection, and then I said 'So now you already know what it's like to be happy with your wife and you see this beautiful woman next to you - Is it fair to assume that this is the same woman that you were dating then?'

And he started laughing. "It is the same woman, absolutely."

"And so the next time you look at this woman, look at her the way that you did then, and see all of those things that you saw in her before - The different facial expressions and the different things that she does - maybe the twinkle in her eye and so on."

So we talked quite a long time about seeing things in this relationship, and he said "Well, I forgot how to look at her - If I was really busy with my work, I forgot, I didn't do it. I suppose that I neglected her."

I said "Well it's not that you neglected her its just that you were paying attention to different things."
So I said "When you go home tonight and she opens the door, just look at her the way that you did those days and see that woman in front of you - and for the next few days pay attention to the things that you see, and acknowledge it."

Which he did.

And then he called me three days later and said that it had made all of the difference in the world - He didn't even see her, he was busy doing things. So his relationship with this woman had been strictly from an auditory modality point of view - It is an interesting consideration.
And he needed to retrain himself in order to see - So by interjecting in this case, through a very simple intervention that didn't require tremendous amount of intervention because the basic foundation was there - and it made all of the difference - They went out and he was holding her hand and he was telling her how beautiful she was - and starting to notice different things about her that he took for granted and ignored in the past which led to a renewal in their connection.

Michael : Excellent. And what do you think - Looking back at the whole thing - The fact that he is now doing this - What do you think it will mean for the future?

What difference do you think the work that you have done will mean for him as time goes on?

Anita : Even though it was a very very simple element, extremely simple - as simple of an intervention that one can imagine - it's going to make a difference in the sense that this man will be able to access his emotions and be able to be more present in the moment, because in the past he talked himself out of feeling - He was very efficient at work and at what he did in his accounting job, but he was inactive in the relationship because he approached people in same fashion as he approached data.
He talked his way out of feeling and out of intimate connection with people.

Michael : And is there anything - having done this intervention - that he will need to be able to maintain it and grow it?

Anita : I did see him a couple of more times and of course we expanded upon this original intervention. I did spend some time with him helping him to retrain and access his visual modality. He took it very seriously as it made a big difference in his immediate relationship - He will be able to take it with him and apply it with different relationships with people that require more of an intimate connection than let's say, data at the office.

He also reported significance increase in his satisfaction in relating to his children, where he had also talked himself out of connection.

Michael : To bring this case study to a close, is there anything you'd like to add or anything that you'd like to emphasise - What are the important learnings?

Anita : The important learnings are that each case study, each client, is different - and that the structure of the problem in almost all of my cases is different. So we need to approach the client with an open mind and be flexible with what the structure of the problem really is. And without any preconceived ideas as to what intervention might be appropriate.

Because until we do deliberate the structure and the problem it is very difficult to be successful unless we have done so. So when I saw this client, I did not expect any particular anything - other than to be open minded and to listen to what he had to say.

And only at that moment when I was satisfied, and I understood the structure of this problem, which was quite simple - was I able to intervene in a fashion that was appropriate to him.

Michael : Thank you very much for explaining that to us.

We hope you enjoyed our podcast!

Source of this interview can be found here.

Anita Kozlowski | An NLP Case Study on Education

Anita Kozlowski discusses an NLP Education Case Study with NLP Trainer Michael Beale

Anita Kozlowski, MA is the founder of the Live with Power Institute and Live with Power NLP™ seminar group in Edmonton, Alberta, an internationally licensed NLP™ trainer, business consultant, results coach and speaker.

Michael : I'm very pleased again to have Anita with us who's going to talk about how she has managed to change somebody from academic under performer to successful academic performer.

Anita, can you introduce yourself to people again?

Anita : Hello Michael, my name is Anita Keblowski. I live in Canada. I run a company called Live With Power NLP Seminars - We specialize in offering licensed practitioner training, in house trainings, personal things and customized seminars - We just finished one for therapists in a maximum security prison - Sales seminars, and we are getting into flirtation seminars, because we are finding that this is a very current topic in this world - particularly amongst the second wave of youth - people that have been through three divorces and are now ready for the fourth, successful, attempt.

Michael : Well I shall look forward to talking to you about that some other time - but that sounds interesting, and a genuine place where you can help people.

Anyway, we're going to talk about this academic under performance. If I can start you of by saying - Can you tell us the client's original situation? What was their situation? What was their problem? The presented problem of the client?

Anita : I see numerous clients in regards to academic under performance. I came to realise that no two cases are exactly the same, and each case is - As I would say - different.

In this particular case I will talk about a young girl who was fifteen years old, who was obviously very bright, who was either failing exams consistently or being on the verge of failing, which led to significant stress and frustration - and a progressive resistance to attending school.
So that's my client.

Michael : What would have happened had that continued? If you didn't do anything, if she didn't do anything, what would have happened?

Anita : She would have dropped out of school because she was at a point where she lost confidence with herself and for her attendance at school became so painful that it became not worthwhile. She had a whole bunch of psycho-somatic problems such as headaches, migraines, different things which kept her from school. Classic anxiety syndromes and it was only a matter of time before she would not be attending school - Which was the concern, particularly, for her family.

Her obvious level of intelligence was not congruent with her level of performance despite good attempts that she produced.

Michael : And at that state you found out what your clients current situation is - What are your own objectives/ What did you want to do? What outcome were you aiming for?

Anita : Obviously my objective would be that her academic performance would improve to the degree that she would be able to continue at school - The immediate objective would be to find out exactly what is the structure of the problem - How does she construct this inability to perform academically in situations where it matters?

Each client as I've mentioned before, is different - There can be numerous reasons leading to a particular outcome. This was my first objective, because after establishing the structure of the problem, the intervention is quite simple.

Michael : So what did you actually do? Tell me some of the things you did in sequence, if sequence is important.

Anita : Sure. When I first saw this girl I saw that she was already quite resistant to any change. She had seem numerous therapists - She had also been diagnosed with all kinds of fashionable labels like ADD and god knows what ever medical aides are coming on the market. And she had displayed a significant degree of anxiety because she was already expecting to be talked down to like before - so even before I could engage in a discussion of the problem or establish rapport with her - with I did by talk about things that are completely irrelevant to the issue.

I asked her about different things she did every single day. We discussed some of her friends and this got her to talk to me in the first place. Which she did.

Then, looking at her, and having met her mother who was a highly achieved professional, I got the feeling that there had been a significant amount of pressure on this child to perform academically, which explained the degree of stress that she experienced. That was my hypothesis.

So I said 'I remember a time when I was attending school, and I remember not being so good in maths and then coming home and being really afraid of what my father would say, because my father was very ambitious.'

And I could see her eyes light up and I could see that we connected - and I knew that we were on the same frame.
Then I switched the subject, and left that loop open, and asked 'By the way, what do you do for fun?'

And she told me 'Oh I do horse jumping.' and she proceeded to tell me how she was a successful horse jumper and how she had been entering many competitions and actually winning them. Which was a good piece of information to utilise down the road.

So in that position we were in a state of rapport where I could examine that problem and look at it.

So from then on, I said to her 'Tell me about this problem that you had in the past, that problem that you had in exams - because I know in academic situations there can be numerous reasons for under performance, that could be simple things such as environmental concerns -such as noises and pollution or the desks - or a particular teacher that teaches in a way which isn't congruent to the way that people process information.

There could be things like a lack of preparation which could be easy to fix. Or there could be an actual bodily response to the the exam, at which point the student wouldn't actually be able to see the exam, but be so busy trying to solve the problem that the exam itself would become irrelevant at which point the different types of intervention would be required.

And she told me that she goes to an exam and she sees the moment that she's getting in the room that huge amount of anxiety and stress - and the moment she sits at the desk she doesn't even see the paper because everything is just floating in front of her.

So I said to her 'Ok, let's say that you didn't answer the questions - What would happen?' because I would need to know what under performance really meant to her - what are the consequences.
And she would say 'I believe that my parents would progressively get mad, and I will not get to that school.' And there was a whole list of horrible things that could happen if she doesn't answer those questions properly - Which obviously would be very stressful.

So I said 'Ok. We've got three things to deal with here. We've got to alleviate the actual stress. We've got to train her to pay attention to the people in front of her about the issue of stress rather than talking about herself about how she can not do it. And three - you need to eliminate the stress so that any sequence of events in an exam situation becomes non stressful for her.

At which point I said 'Let's talk about the exams.' And I switched the subject to how I used to go to school and I used to have a relative who was a teacher - a woman that used to come home - and how she would take a piece of paper and pen and was writing down questions that she would ask the students the next day.

So I re- framed, to make a long story short, the exam into a piece of paper in which the test was written by a retired person who really had to do it for her job. So the exam became only a piece of a paper with things written on it.
And then I talked to her again about all the things that she liked, such as horse jumping. And I said, 'What do they require of you? What do you need to be a good horse jumper?'

And she said 'There are X number of gates I have to jump over - I have to memorize it - I have to have a strategy of how to do it quickly.' And so on and so forth.

And I said 'Yes it's actually quite a lot of planning on your part, and strategy. I think that's a great success - I don't think that I could do that. That's pretty cool. So you're really good at planning and strategizing.'

'Before you actually jump, what is it that you do in order to convince yourself that you are able to do it?'

She said 'Well, simple. I empty my mind, I go into that state of peace and I say to myself 'I am ready''

I said 'Say it - Say it exactly how you have said it.'

And she said 'I am ready.'

So she had given me a strategy for success.

And I said 'So actually when you get ready and empty your mind in that fashion, you already know that you are going to get on with it?'

She said 'Yes. I have already finished.'

I said 'Cool. You already know how to succeed. Do you realise that if you have this ability you can use it any time that you want in situation in your life. It doesn't matter if it's horse jumping, answering questions on a piece of paper that somebody has scribbled down the night before on their kitchen table and translated into a computer - If it's going for a first date or any of those things.'

The other things in her life were strategies that could be useful.

And I said 'Let's construct a little device, because you already know because we discussed these strategies earlier that we have cameras in our place, but we also have other cool devices - any time you need to access this state of piece where you need to say 'I am ready' with that convincing voice, which you already know you gives you permission to succeeded - You will just press this button inside of you, which only you know about, and you will get there right there and then.'

So we installed this kind of internal machine, which we practiced, and I could see a few times that she was getting into this state very quickly and simulate that scenario.

And I said 'now let's imagine you're walking into the room where this piece of paper, which was written on a kitchen table the night before, will be presented - really it will be printed from a computer - and I want you to access that state.'

And she did.

I said 'How do you feel?'

'I feel great'

'Ok now, sit down. and look at this piece of paper with all of these scribbles - Just for a moment let it sit there."
And she did.

"How does it feel?"

She said "I feel it's just a piece of paper with some scribbles on it."

I said "Exactly. Now lets forget about that for now."

We of course did some installations there.

I said 'Now do you like adventure?"

And she told me about camping and she said 'Yes.'

'Do you know about orienteering?'

She said that she had done it a few times. She had been given a map and given some information and had to get from point A to point B.

"Isn't it exciting?"

She says "Yeah. I like the actual searching for the shortest way to get there and so on."

I said "Exactly, you are given a certain amount of information. When you look at so-called exams, which are nothing more then pieces of paper with stuff written on them - It's like a puzzle. A lot of the information is already given. That is, if you pay attention to it, all you have to do is to fill in the blanks - and usually there will be one blank or two blanks, it really doesn't matter - being given all this information makes it easy to figure out."

"So how about you consider it an adventure - a puzzle - Just the same way as when you are orienteering, or planning a camping trip with your friends - You know how to get from point A to point B when you go on a hiking trail."

She says "Yeah."

So I say "The thing is what you pay attention to is what matters. If you were talking to yourself saying that you couldn't do it, obviously you didn't have the time or space to even look at the puzzles that are in front of you. You might as well be watching television. It makes no difference whether you are talking to yourself, or watching TV or reading a newspaper - How about paying attention and searching for certain clues?'

She said 'Yeah, that is actually interesting.'

So I then had a book of puzzles with me which I had used when I was at the pool with my kids.
I said "OK, I will give you a puzzle and I would like you to solve it, no matter how long it takes."

I said that it was very easy, which it was, and she solved it. I asked her how she did.

She said "Well I read the question, and I read for all of the pieces of information and then I filled in the blank."

I said 'Exactly. So that's exactly what you do When you're presented with a piece of paper with scribbles on it from the night before - by, probably a very tired teacher. Next time that you go through this situation you will utilize your wonderful muscle - you will get into that state and then you will just look at this as an adventure, as a trip - in a labyrinth of information where you will find your way.'

She said 'Great'

Then we talked about pleasurable things. And then I asked her a few spontaneous questions, for example from puzzle books - which she answered with great excitement.

And I said 'This is the exact attitude you will use every time you enter into a stressful situation - And you will do extremely well from now on.'

So she went home, and her mother phoned me a few days later and said 'It's amazing, she got ninety eight per cent on her last maths exam!'

I said "That's pretty cool."

Compared to what she was getting just a month earlier it was a great improvement.

That's the short synopsis of what took place.

Michael : Excellent. And again, looking to the future - What difference to you think that it's going to make to this child, this youth's life?

Anita : It's going to make a huge difference, because first of all she was retrained to look at things in a different fashion. She got rid of her fear and instead established a state of curiosity, which is in my opinion a necessary state to have to be at school. In the absence of curiosity I believe people are not likely to succeed.

At the same time she realized that she's in charge of her own task and she is in control of her own performance. Of course later one we also reframed her dependency on her responses to external environments so that she was not dependant psychologically on the feedback that she received from her parents - because after all it was her adventure, just like a horseback riding competition.

Michael : And to summarize again - what are the learning points you've taken out? Is there anything that you would like to add or any learning points that you think are particularly of interest in this case?

Anita : As I said, every problem is different and has a different structure. So when we address different problems we address it on multiple levels - But keeping an underlying belief which leads to a particular outcome. And at the same time when you work with different clients with different problems you utilise all the methods simultaneously, right from the moment of gathering information.

What I've found is that people will often underestimate the importance of gathering information and gathering the structure of the problem. Not only is it essential for us as practitioners to elicit change, because in order to do it we need to understand the structure exactly of how they constructed the problem - but at the same time it also gives us an opportunity to start working with the client while gathering information through various reframing patterns.

We can facilitate massive changes whilst reframing information.

And at the same time I also found that we can designate a client's strategy, a client's decision strategies - motivation strategies and meta programs - all those things that we can utilise later on through the process of interventions when we have designated the structure of the problem.

So - No two clients are the same. And no two problems are exactly the same - each one is a new place that we need to approach with an open mind and ask the write questions, which are often more far reaching that the immediately problem that we see in them - Because often the problem that people present is not the problem there is.
So when I look at problems (So called.) I don't focus only on the immediate problem which they believe it is - Rather the genetic structure in which the problem occurs, so that we can apply a little change at the level of the problem but also so we can see it within the global structure within which it happens.

Michael : That's really really good. And really just to finish off, can you remind people of your contact details if anyone would like to contact you?

Anita : My phone number is 7809226177 and our website is This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. or www.livewithpower.com. And we often have an upcoming licensed practitioner training. You are more than welcome to attend.

Michael : Excellent. Thank you very much indeed.

Anita : My pleasure.

We hope you enjoyed our podcast!

Source of this interview can be found here.

Anita Kozlowski and NLP Trainer Michael Beale discus smoking and other addictions

Anita Kozlowski discusses an NLP Education Case Study with NLP Trainer Michael Beale

Anita Kozlowski, MA is the founder of the Live with Power Institute and Live with Power NLP™ seminar group in Edmonton, Alberta, an internationally licensed NLP™ trainer, business consultant, results coach and speaker.

Michael : Good morning Anita. Firstly thank you ever so much for agreeing to take part in this podcast on addiction. Can you kick it off by giving our listeners a little bit of an introduction of who you are and what you do?

Anita : Hello. Thank you for calling. I am Anita Kozlowski I'm a licensed trainer with the Society of NLP and a soul proprietor of Live With Power NLP Seminars in Edmonton Alberta here in Canada, which is the equivalent of Siberia.

Michael : What sort of things do you do there?

Anita : We have an institute where we offer licensed practitioner, master practitioner training as well as, in-house consulting and corporate training. Also we see clients with various types of questions regularly. And we are developing new types of programs for 2009 and further with a big vision for the future.

Michael : And back to the subject of addiction. What do you mean by "addiction"?

Anita : Addiction - addiction is, as I mentioned earlier, a fantastic nominalization where with the label you can "define" many behaviours, with attached underlying presuppositions which may be injurious to an individuals' well being, as a part of a belief system. But if we really go into depth as to what is an addiction, it is a pattern of behaviour, both internal and manifested externally, in a manner where a person feels that they are unable to stop it, and feels compelled to repeat the same pattern over and over again - to such a degree that it might interfere with their functioning, and ultimately satisfaction and happiness in life.

So, addictions as such - I personally do not believe in the label of addiction, because it implies being a victim, or being a reaction to something that is happening outside of the individual. But if we go back to the commonly understood concept of addiction - those can be numerous - it could manifest itself as a desire to smoke cigarettes or to drink some alcohol, excessively shop - or even obsessive focus on speaking on a particular subject matter such that an individual finds it difficult to think about other things

Michael : OK. Are there any cases where an addiction could be useful?

Anita : It depends on how we define addiction. However I do not believe that addiction as such, as understood generically is useful because it implies a lack of control, a belief one is "run by something external to oneself". In other words the label implies the individual is NOT in charge of their own thoughts and behaviour. . I would say that instead of thinking of the usefulness, one should say that developing new habits which are based on choice each and every time, is a much more useful practice than passive engagement in behaviour one perceives as running one's life, or thinking patterns - so I believe that its not.

Michael : And speaking very big picture, top level - what are some of the approaches that you do use treating people with addiction?

Anita : Well there are many different clients with many different patterns, and I would say that each I see and experience is different, so obviously asking the right questions to find out the individual pattern to be assessed, how a person does what they have been doing, which did not work for them. Based on that I can assess their beliefs, their value statements, their core identity issues and also elicit their strategy of how they get into a particular behaviour internally, and how do they engage in the behaviour of doing something or manifesting it externally. In this case smoking or any other behaviour that involves a chain of unaesthetic actions.

At which point I can insert different patterns into various levels, of syntax, of creating state, of creating a particular way of displaying behaviour - and install a new thinking process through hypnotics inductions or conversational hypnotic suggestions.

Michael : OK, so can you take a particular example. Smoking, or anything that you chose really. Just talk us through - and it can be a made up example, I don't just want a factual example - almost put a bit more flesh on what you talked about. Somebody has come in because they smoke too much, what are the sorts of questions that you'd ask, and what are the sort of responses that you could get from somebody?

And I appreciate that everybody is different, so I appreciate that I'm asking for a generalisation.

Anita : OK so first of all I need to find out if a person really considers their behaviour to be problematic for themselves, and to make sure that they really want to stop. Often at times people think that they want to stop, but what I find through my questions is that they are not sure and that they might not actually want to stop.

So I need to make certain that they do want to stop, and then I will ask them "And how has this behaviour been a problem for you? What was the price that you paid?"

How do you know you want to stop? Maybe you do, maybe you don't, don't you now? Or in other words, what is it that they had not been getting as a result of engaging in this behaviour and what it is they will get as a result of deciding to stop now.

Which also leads me to another question - I will say "Tell me now, specifically, if you can think of a time now when you had the right behaviour? What is your life like now? Let us pretend that we have put it aside for just a moment."

So I get them into a state where they are free of this behaviour and I carefully listen to their responses in terms of what it is that that they want, at which point they will also ask into their beliefs and their values and dig deeper and ask more questions finding out what really, is their core belief, and what it is that they really want.

And then I will ask them when I have figured that out, how will they know when they have it, and that point will give me a very clear response as to how they verify internally their own beliefs.

So then I ask them to tell me, how they do that behaviour. In other words, there are several questions involved in this process. I will ask them "So, just before you used to reach for the cigarette, what is it that you fell? What is it that you said to yourself?" At which point I figure out their syntax and figure out a strategy, as I know what it is that they do prior to engaging in the K of the behaviour..

And at this point we will do some work with them in terms of changing the sub-modalities changing the syntax and their patterning.

Michael : OK. Can you give an example of what it might be? What might you do with them in that circumstance? And I appreciate that you're making it up.

Anita : Specifically at which moment?

Michael : You've just found out the strategy that they take as they're smoking and you've mentioned before that you use pattern interrupts. I'm just curious if you can come up with a pattern interrupt and how you would fit it into their strategy.

Anita : Well there are very different things that I do in one particular case. I do have a very special dish which has a significant amount of ammonia which has an extremely powerful smell - which I quickly put under their nose, which acts as a form of punishment and shock, eliciting a very negative response at a specific time and often at times anger, and the person will say "What are you doing there?"

And I will say "Well, we will talk about this later."

And then we keep on going - do there are various things. It can be asking different questions - even telling a homomorphic metaphor, which is one case worked, where I told a lady "OK, let us imagine now that there is a huge explosion in the house right now, and you can hear the sounds and you can feel the heat coming and you can see the smoke coming - and now you're choking!"

Because she told me earlier that she just cannot stop because she cannot make a decision. And I said "Now, we're sitting on the second floor of the building, what can we do?"

"I will jump from the balcony."

"Are you sure?"

"Yes, I must save my life."

I said "Really? So do you wait for me to tell you to jump, or do you jump yourself?"

She said "No, no, no, I jump."

"Well." I said "You just made a decision. So obviously you know how to decide don't you?"

"Oh. I never thought of it that way."

And so we continued. You can do numerous things, depending on the person that you are with.

Michael : OK, moving on from that. You've done a couple of interventions, what sort of things would you do once you came to the end of the meeting?

Anita : Well after we have made some changes that have allowed us to find out how people have got to this state where they actually reach for the cigarette physically, then there is the whole chain of kinesthetics in which we are involved, which is also connected with mental-internal syntax.

So now I will tell them "OK. So now, try in vain to reach for that one with the other hand." So its disrupting the neurological pattern of how to reach for a cigarette, because obviously they've reached a level of unconscious competency in doing that and they do it almost automatically. And this stops the pattern, they find it really disturbing to do it with the other hand.

Once they've succeeded I say "OK now, what I want you to do now is to take the cigarette that you used to like in front of yourself and just look at it for one minute before trying in vain to light it up with the other one and as you focus on this piece of tissue filled with……imagine a soft pile of cat shit ( I make blurp sounds when I say these words), think to yourself "this is a pile of cat shit", say it about five sloooow times. And then, you may decide with you don't want to do it do you now?."

And often at times people are very confused. And then I give them an assignment that for the next twenty one days they can smoke as much as they wish, but the objective is to try in vain with the other hand, and install a particular syntax prior to inhaling the cigarette or lighting it up.

Michael : That sounded really interesting, can you just explain that a little bit more? Tell me again what you will ask them to do for the next twenty one days. What you may chose to ask them to do for the next twenty-one days.

Anita : And of course, we both understand that its a fairly simplistic model of what I'm saying because there are many different intervention in the process.

Michael : I totally understand, I totally understand. Its really for a metaphor, so that people listening to this can get some idea of the sorts of things that could happen.

Anita : Well my instruction to them is that they will try in vain each and every time to reach for the cigarette with the other hand. In other words, when they are used to lighting up with the right hand, now they will try in vain to do it with the other hand, which really presupposes that they will not be able to do it.

And then when they have succeeded in doing so, instead of automatically taking it to their mouth and inhaling, they need to hold it in their other hand, and then looking at it they have to say to themselves - lets say, "This is something (really disgusting)", or something that they have a negative reaction to, emotionally.

At which point after one minute, if they still feel like smoking it, obviously they can because its a matter of choice, and if we interact with a client who exhibits addictive behaviour, or engages in them - often the times that they engage in them is part of their identity. So one of the things that I will do very early on when they say "I am a smoker" is that I will re frame it, and have them believe that they are not a smoker, but rather an individual that had been making choices to smoke cigarettes twenty five times a day, rather than being something.

Because if we take something away from someone, or pretend to take it, when it is at an identity level, then that person gets into a state of panic, and state of losing something that is really a part of them - because the question that happens is "Whats left?" And sometimes the answer would be "Nothing."

Michael : Interesting.

Anita :So its a matter of figuring out what is it that a person doesn't want? What is it that they want? How is it that we can change their patterns? And then shifting their belief about their own abilities to speak to themselves or engage - because every time that they engage in a behaviour they have exactly the same choice as when they do not engage in that behavior, and when people understand that and can reorganise the patterns then often - most of the time - Ive had 99% success with them - they choose their other options. One guy who continued smoking told me he never intended to stop in the first place. So I told him to smoke three packs in one sitting, which he did and got really sick. As far as I know he abstains. The same works with those who eat chocolate in obscene amounts.

Michael : Excellent. Is there anything else that you would do at the very end of the meeting?

Anita : Well at the end of the meeting obviously I will future-pace the outcomes so-to-speak, and of course I will test the procedures to make sure that they work - the kind of anchors that we're looking for, we will ask questions - of course watch the person change their state.

And sometimes if I think that a person hasn't totally, completely shifted their belief system as a result of the different interventions, then we'll go through the process again, or different aspects within the process that we've just been through.

Michael : OK - so you'll carry on until you get a result?

Anita : Always. And then I will see that client again. Probably within twenty-one days. To find out how they are doing and even to offer them a chance to try the same things, or to try a different behaviour to the ones that they are usually connected.

Michael : Interesting. Thank you very much for that. There again, stepping back, more big-picture -to any of the people listening that are maybe a bit concerned that they've got an addiction - are there any tips or ideas that you can can give them?

Obviously if they really wanted to take it seriously to come and and see someone like you is a very good thing to do - but they haven't quite reached that stage yet, and they maybe want to get over it themselves - have you got any ideas or approaches that you might suggest that they think about?

Anita : First of all what I would say is that before you engage in with an individual such as myself or yourself, you need to make sure that you really know what it is that you want to stop, and that you know what it is that you want as a result of stopping, and know what you want to change, and understand and feel - and know what it is that you really want.

And once you are certain that you do, at that point it will be very useful for you to engage in an interacting with someone lime myself or yourself.

I would also encourage people who have recognised the particular behaviour that they want to change to really be present and pay attention to the moment they are engaging in these behaviours. In other words ask yourself why is it that you have been choosing to engage in these behaviours? What is it that you feel? What is it that you say to yourself? And keep track of those things.

I even offered a suggestion to one fellow whose addiction or habit was negative self talk. I said to him "OK, I want you to buy yourself a notebook and buy yourself an expensive one because what you're doing is very valuable, and every time you find yourself using negative language I want you to make a sign on each page of this notebook so that you will recognise how many times a day it has happened - What is the pattern of this? Even if it is in the middle of the night, do this for twenty-one days."

At which point, the taking notes, which he took very seriously - it was the most important thing for him at this time, he realised how uncomfortable it was for him to get up at three o' clock in the morning and make a sign in his notebook, which itself was a pattern interrupt in his life, and caused a lot of discomfort.

And he said "I didn't realise that I've done this sixty five times on Tuesday, I didn't want to get up at 3am!"

And I said "Well the choice is yours, you decide what you really want. If you want freedom from this - or maybe it has been very pleasurable so maybe you could increase how often you wake yourself up and give yourself some more pleasure."

So after twenty-one days of doing this, the fellow was extremely upset and frustrated with himself and he told me "I just cant handle this any more, to stay like this! I feel it in my stomach, I'm so angry with it."

"What is it that you want?"

"Well, I want to be free of it."

I said, "So how will you get that?"

"Well this and that. I have to talk to you."

Which means that his belief is now that I am in charge of his behaviour. And he's looking for permission from me for him to stop.

So my intervention would be that that gentleman is able to shift his belief as to who is in charge of his behaviour. But really its up to him in the same way that he decides that he has to get up at 3am and has to draw something in his book.

And he said "Well, I never thought of this."

"Exactly. So you are the driver of your bus, and you decide on which road and where the bus is going and how fast."

And I said "I can definitely get on board, but I'm not necessarily excited about the ride."

Its awfully boring having to sit next to someone that every ten seconds has to make a sign in his book. I would probably kill him.

Michael : OK, interesting. Moving on from that, and then again stepping out and taking a big picture thing - If you had to describe your relationship with a client as a metaphor, a story or a cartoon character, when you're working with them on something like you've just talked about - how would you describe them?

Anita : In terms of my relationship with the client?

Michael : Yes, you're relationship in terms of you as a practitioner, trainer, whatever label you give yourself - your relationship between you and your client as you're working with them in terms of getting them to achieve whatever it is you're going to achieve.

Anita : As a metaphor - I'm just a guide. A tour guide walking along with them and guiding them across a trail to a place where they want to get - lets imagine its an island, or a mountain with deep summit, in a large dense forest. A lot of the time people will want to get their quickly and efficiently - they might not have the courage and they might not have the means, but I am a tour guide for most of them and we travel together quickly and successfully.

Michael : I like that. I like that. Thank you very much for talking to us sharing your experience.

Anita : You're welcome.

Michael : Is there anything - you talked a little bit at the beginning, maybe you would like to round off by saying - actually, firstly if you could say anything about addiction either that we haven't covered that you think is important, or anything about addiction that you think is important enough that you'd like to leave as a last thought on our listeners to hear?

That's the first question - is there anything the emphasise?

Anita : I would emphasise that I personally reject the idea of addiction. I do not believe in the idea of addiction, and I don't believe in any nominalization that people adopt at the level of their own identity - because accepting this type of a label really presupposes being in a reactive mode, being a victim to a thing that is external to oneself, and thereby often giving people permission to relapse, so to speak. Labels are deeply connetcted to a whole chain of underlying beliefs.

So the most important thing to realise is that they are behaviours that we can each and every time change to anything we want and often if we are choosing to engage in a behaviour that we also have the choice not too - and to realise that we are not our behaviour - that we are just people who had been deciding to do something

Michael : OK, and is there anything that you're doing now that you would like to bring to peoples attention? Anything that you would like to plug, or as I say, bring to people's attention?

Anita : That I am doing?

Michael : Yes. Any services that you can offer.

Anita : OK. I work one on one with clients and I also teach sales seminars and communications seminars and presentations. And also I'm developing a new program for 2009, specifically one for communicating in relationships.

And I strongly believe, with proper coaching a lot of difficult experiences in relationships, with complete understanding, can be completely avoided, and that people can lead much happier and much more peaceful lives individually, and as couples.

So that is one thing that I am working on right now.

Michael : And if anybody wants to contact you, whats the best way for them to do it?

Anita :Well they can phone me certainly. For Canada and the United States, there is a toll free number which is 1877 922 6177

They can also email me, the email address is This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. , or they can also go to my website which is http://www.livewithpower.com

Michael : OK. Thank you very much for your time in talking with us today.

Anita : My pleasure.

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